{"id":2259,"date":"2009-10-30T14:52:47","date_gmt":"2009-10-30T18:52:47","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/pierrejoris.com\/blog\/?p=2259"},"modified":"2009-10-30T14:52:47","modified_gmt":"2009-10-30T18:52:47","slug":"jolly-eschatology","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/pierrejoris.com\/blog\/jolly-eschatology\/","title":{"rendered":"Jolly Eschatology"},"content":{"rendered":"

\"Ende\"<\/a>Via signandsight<\/a>, an interview with the authors of a book out only in German so far, but that may be quite worthwhile translating, even if much of its political\/cultural aim is German-directed. Any takers?<\/p>\n

\n

Claus Leggewie and Harald Welzer have written a book about the end of the world as we knew it. They tell Jan Feddersen why.<\/h3>\n
\n

Taz<\/strong>: Herr Leggewie, Herr Welzer, the economy is showing signs of recovery. Isn\u2019t the global financial meltdown going rather well?<\/em><\/p>\n

CL<\/strong>: It depends how you look at it. At least greenhouse gasses emissions are dropping. I haven\u2019t seen any bankers dangling from the street lamps but the stock exchange tickers are up and running again, and trade in those idiotic derivatives is booming.<\/p>\n

HW<\/strong>: It\u2019s business as usual, it\u2019s as if it\u2019d never happened. Except that the bill for crisis management<\/strong> will have to be footed by the generations to come.<\/p>\n

Does your book \u201cThe End of the World As We Knew It\u201d play on universal anxiety about crisis?<\/em>
\n
\nHW<\/strong>: Quite the opposite. We are calling for cultural change<\/strong>, which would be worthwhile even without a crisis. It still makes sense to reject the hegemonic culture of waste and the civil religion of growth even without climate change and economic crisis \u2013 and it\u2019s fun too.<\/p>\n

CL<\/strong>: <\/strong>We\u2019ve had a lot of very positive feedback from people who\u2019ve had it up to here with the world as we knew it and who believe that now is the time to build a better world by pooling our resources. The political class has no idea that all around them, a new type of extra-parliamentary movement<\/strong> is forming?
\n
\nWhat form is it taking?<\/em><\/p>\n

CL<\/strong>: The Pirate Party<\/strong>, for example, or the climate alliances and new protest movements.<\/p>\n

You\u2019ve chosen a rather trendy title for your book, haven\u2019t you?<\/em>
\n
\nHW<\/strong>: It\u2019s a wonderful title that we stole rather unfashionably from REM<\/strong>. The extra-parliamentary chorus \u201cIt\u2019s the end of the world as we know it\u201d continues: \u201cand I feel fine\u201d. We\u2019ll also be happy when the world as we know it is over.
\n
\nYou obviously enjoy making apocalyptic jokes. Or how else should we interpret your romance with crisis?<\/em>
\n
\nHW<\/strong>: Why do people always have to talk about the apocalypse and loving crisis whenever you tell it like it is?<\/p>\n

Why indeed?<\/em><\/p>\n

HW<\/strong>: Look, I\u2019ll put it very simply: what they sell us as realpolitik these days is a complete illusion, because it doesn\u2019t address any the problems of the future<\/strong> \u2013 climate change, dwindling resources, mounting water and food deficits, the escalating global conflict potential, the exploitation of our children\u2019s future. If you look at it this way, it\u2019s the realpoliticians who seem who have a fondness for crises. Crises also provide an excellent opportunity to score points for tireless crisis management. This is good for distracting from the fact that there is nothing on the political agenda.<\/p>\n

Every party has its own way of trying to get its message heard. The Union is trying to instil calm, the SPD just wants votes. The Greens are all about the environment. Why do you have such a problem with this struggle for influence?<\/em><\/p>\n

CL<\/strong>: By trying to calm the electorate<\/strong> they are simply ignoring the core issues about the future, as we saw in the TV duel between the ruling parties and the three-way battle between the opposition parties [FDP, Greens, Die Linke] over maintaining the social status quo. Even the Greens, who at least feature environmental protection in their campaign, seem to be oblivious to the explosiveness of these issues.
\n
\nYou\u2019ll have to explain. You\u2019re saying that the Greens have no idea about the real political agenda?<\/em><\/p>\n

CL<\/strong>: Don\u2019t worry, we are probably much more fond of the Greens than they are of us. They are the ones who are closest to our cause, but after the Magdeburg fiasco<\/a> \u2026<\/p>\n

The party conference in 1998 when the Greens demanded 5 DM for every litre of petrol<\/strong> and were ripped to pieces by the mass media as a result.<\/em>
\n
\nCL<\/strong>: Since then they have been petrified about being written off as a purely eco party. And they\u2019d rather have people demonstrate against nuclear energy than have to think about climate change not only in terms of a shift in technology, but as a vector for a new society and way of doing politics.<\/p>\n

HW<\/strong>:You have to ask yourself why, in the midst of the biggest crisis of the post-war period, we are seeing an election campaign that is entirely free of content. Our guess is that the political agendas of all parties are so bound up with ideas of progress<\/strong>, development and growth that when they are confronted with a situation in which nothing is growing or moving forwards, they have no idea what to do. They are left standing, empty-handed and empty-headed<\/strong>, and this goes for the Greens, too, who should have been having a field day, like in 2007 when the IPCC reports<\/a> came out<\/p>\n

\u2026the world climate reports\u2026Okay. In your book you write that the political system, Green Party included, is failing to represent the new climate-awareness of large swathes of society. But why is this?<\/em>
\n
\nCL<\/strong>: Through our various activities and contact with universities, people in the solar industry, social movements and among our wider circle of acquaintances, we are getting to know a lot of hugely competent people who are really making changes and making things happen in their various fields, but who would never consider voting for the Greens<\/strong>. This is might be not be very political but it should stir the grey cells of the green establishment.<\/p>\n

As a democrat should you just not accept that the parties, as they really exist in the Bundesrepublik, are unable to secure a majority for making politics greener?<\/em><\/p>\n

CL<\/strong>: Only if they stay trapped in the old political mindset and coalition games. Because unlike in the early days of the Greens, sustainability<\/strong> as an idea and concept has gained a foothold right across society, and you will find that a significant number of citizens would prefer to vote for a chancellor who would fight for sustainable industry and for a breakthrough at the climate talks in Copenhagen<\/a> \u2013 what else could we want? And why is the taz<\/strong> so hung up on the parties anyway?<\/p>\n

HW<\/strong>:It\u2019s a mystery to me, too. The parties have had no new ideas since the fall of the Wall<\/strong> 20 years ago, and this applies right across the board. They simulate politics for a society which no longer exists. As we see it, democracy is under pressure on two fronts \u2013 now that the West has slipped from the centre of global society, and with the internal process of erosion which is manifested in the shrinking voter numbers<\/strong>, the waning endorsement of democracy and so on and so forth. This is why we need a re-politicisation of civil society and a new extra-parliamentary opposition<\/strong>.
\n
\nTaking that hope seriously for a moment: Will this new extra-parliamentary eco-movement recruit its agents, or cadres from the educated middle classes?<\/em><\/p>\n

HW<\/strong>: We have not really been thinking in terms of cadre organisation<\/strong>. But actually there is a real need in some areas to used to old metaphors and protest forms. How many times can you say that it\u2019s five minutes to midnight, or that the planet has a fever or that we\u2019re borrowing the earth from our children? Out-of date thoughts and strategies are no use to us in the current situation, we need new ones. And that is why an extra-parliamentary opposition (APO<\/strong>) needs the elites on board the second time round.
\n
\nDid you just say elites?<\/em><\/p>\n

HW<\/strong>: From where they are sitting, they have the most room for manoeuvre and the best opportunity to steer debate and make other choices. And since we\u2019re on the subject, I\u2019d just like to say that many of the actors from today\u2019s educated middle classes do not stem from the traditional bourgeoisie \u2013 as a result Willy Brandt\u2019s policy on education. This is why in this post-68 generation<\/strong> there is huge potential for politicisation.
\n
\nCL<\/strong>: There are agents of change at all levels of society, and the challenge it to convince the people in Hamburg-Wilhelmsburg, Essen-Altenessen or in Emden (where unemployment levels are high), to believe in themselves.<\/p>\n

But is this democratic, if the people don\u2019t want it?<\/em>
\n
\nCL<\/strong>: Who says they don\u2019t want it? I see a worldwide shift towards to state-imposed ecology<\/strong>, the Chinese central committee has just demonstrated how to administer the Green Deal from above. People who haven\u2019t read the book or didn\u2019t want to understand it have even accused me of endorsing eco-dictatorship, among them some so-called \u201cclimate sceptics\u201d, who must be among the most ignorant and irresponsible people around. The opposite is the case: I have great faith in the ability of democratic societies to regenerate themselves from the bottom up<\/strong>.<\/p>\n

You both emphasise that you are not asking people to make sacrifices. Yet many people associate the Greens and their essayists with sacrifice and abstinence \u2013 and they imagine that only people who have everything would suggest that other people should make sacrifices. How would you counter such accusations?<\/em>
\n
\nHW<\/strong>: By pointing out that the status quo demands that we make all kinds of sacrifices but that no one every talks about it.<\/p>\n

Feel free!<\/em>
\n
\nHW<\/strong>: Those beautiful asphalt landscapes. That glorious noise pollution from aeroplanes. Those spectacular diseases of civilisation. And then they all cry \u201cSacrifice! Sacrifice!\u201d if you make any suggestions for changing the way things are or encourage the people to get off their backsides!<\/p>\n

The suggestions you make for transforming society are like labours of Hercules. Can you really expect this of our citizens?<\/em>
\n
\nCL<\/strong>:Certainly not without civil society. A lot of people believe in the combination of subsidised heavy industry, draconian EU regulations and national laws, and then they wonder at the ridiculous outbursts of civil disobedience when the EU changes the light bulbs<\/strong>. This is what happens when sustainability is enforced top down, without using the intelligence of the masses.
\n
\nHW<\/strong>: It\u2019s a myth that cultural change is painfully slow and arduous. You only have to look at how styles of child rearing have changed in this country in the last 20 years. Or look at the sense of irony, which didn\u2019t exist for the first 40 years after the war. If changes are perceived as a good thing, they can happen very quickly. Which is why in ten years there will be no more SUVs in our city centres.
\n
\nCan you sympathise with the many voters whose primary concern is the threat to their savings or their jobs?<\/em><\/p>\n

HW<\/strong>: Not everyone has the same room for manoeuvre, and in a society with severe social inequality, it is completely rational for those in the lower income bracket to be more concerned about making a living. I fully understand that someone on the bottom of our society doesn\u2019t give a damn about climate change.<\/p>\n

What do you say to people who say that as a successful person, it\u2019s easy for you to talk about making fundamental changes?<\/em><\/p>\n

CL<\/strong>: I\u2019d say that they are right to some extent. But we are not pretending to know all the answers, we are being very open about when we hit up against our own limits, when we fall back on old habits, or when we are simply at a loss.
\n
\nCan you give me an example?<\/em>
\n
\nHW<\/strong>: Like taking \u201cthe odd\u201d plane, every now and then, or \u201cthe odd\u201d cab ride. But then I think it would be completely misguided to tell myself and everyone else to become climate monks overnight <\/strong>and to do penance for sinning. Firstly, if you live in a modern society, you have to meet the demands of so many different roles. In other words life is contradictory. Then you have to appreciate that the outside world is not only full of material infrastructures like streets and airports, but that these material infrastructures have also influenced our mental infrastructures. Oiloholic societies<\/strong>, by which I mean societies that are shaped by oil, create certain ways of thinking and it\u2019s really not very easy to think outside the box. Just try and imagine a world without oil. I recently ran though in my mind how much mopeds and cars have shaped my life, what an emotional role they have played, how these machines have inscribed themselves into my mental infrastructure. After thinking about all this for a while, I realised that I myself am the problem that has to be solved if we want to bring about successful cultural change.<\/p>\n

A most useful insight?<\/em><\/p>\n

HW<\/strong>: It\u2019s easier said than done. The problem is that cultural experience is written into the habitus.
\n
\nWhat makes you both worry about \u201cthe end of the world\u201d?<\/em><\/p>\n

CL<\/strong>: It\u2019s mostly our children, to whom the book is dedicated. Then it\u2019s the satisfaction of working towards a potentially new era. Love of the human race. And last but not least, the desire for new topics of research.
\n
\nHW<\/strong>: In recent years we have attracted a regular stream of abuse and ridicule from our oh-so-brilliant colleagues whenever we said that we wanted to change the world. But we do, and to this day, I can\u2019t see why that is any worse than writing the seven-hundredth essay about Freud\u2019s esoteric theory or Luhmann\u2019s glass bead game. We think it\u2019s good to think for yourself<\/strong>.<\/p>\n

*<\/p>\n

Harald Welzer<\/strong> (b.1958) is a professor of social psychology at University Witten-Herdecke and runs the research gourp on \u201cMemory and Remembrance\u201d at Kulturwissenschaftliches Institut Essen. His lastest book \u201cKlimakriege\u201d (climate wars) was published in 2008.<\/p>\n

Claus Leggewie<\/strong> (b.1950) is director of the Kulturwissenschaftliches Institut Essen and a member of the Wissenschaftlichen Beirats der Bundesregierung Globale Umweltver\u00e4nderungen (German Advisory Council on Climate Change). His most recent publication is \u201cEin Ort, an den man gerne geht. Das Holocaust-Mahnmal und die deutsche Geschichtspolitik nach 1989\u201d [A nice place to go. The Holocaust memorial and German politics of history after 1989] (Carl Hanser Verlag 2005). Leggewie is also a member of the the scientific advisory council for Attac<\/a><\/p>\n

Read an essay by Claus Leggewie and Harald Welzer \u201cCan democracies deal with climate change<\/a>?\u201d Deutschland \u2013 but he also critical of their democratic deficits and internal contradictions.<\/em><\/p>\n

This article originally appeared<\/a> in German in the taz<\/strong> on September 19, 2009<\/em><\/p>\n

Jan Feddersen<\/strong> (b.1957) is a writer for the sonntaz<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n

Translation: lp<\/em><\/p>\n

Get the signandsight newsletter<\/a> for regular updates on feature articles.<\/em>
\nsignandsight.com \u2013 let\u2019s talk european.<\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

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